Mike Aquino
Posted on 19. Oct, 2009 by Pepe in Oplan Pepe
I no longer consider myself a Catholic
I no longer consider myself a Catholic. No matter how fondly I remember the good parts of being Catholic – the songs, the retreats, the lessons – Catholicism for me became increasingly difficult to reconcile with common sense and decency.
I can’t reconcile so-called Catholic values with the Catholic institution’s nasty tendency to close ranks around its priests. Child abuse in the priesthood was given cover for so long because bishops would rather hide abusive priests rather than confirm that such abuse took place. Justice became secondary to the preservation of appearances.
I can’t reconcile so-called Catholic virtue with its hierarchy’s politics, often exercised to uphold retrograde policies against family planning and reproductive health. Empowered by its mass believer base, the Catholic Church continues to abuse its political power in the secular world.
In Manila, doctors were forbidden to prescribe contraceptives to patients, because Mayor Atienza thought he could implement Catholic doctrine into municipal governance. Church pressure has distorted the Reproductive Health debate; the simple question of “should government-run health centers provide reproductive health services, including artificial family planning methods” has been drowned out by priests railing against it from the pulpits and banners hung from churches.
There has been no good-faith effort by the Church hierarchy to explain their side; there has only been arm-twisting and emotional blackmail. Church representatives have ignored or walked out on any efforts to engage them in discussion.
In short, I can’t believe the Church is moral anymore. A fatal conclusion for someone who was raised to believe that Catholic priests acted in persona Christi capitis, in the person of Christ.
I now know that is a lie; many Catholics, laymen and priests alike, use their faith as cover for some of the most grievous immoralities. Not just in the Philippines; the Church hierarchy is complicit in genocide in Rwanda, torture in Argentina, and child abuse in the West. In persona Christi capitis my ass.
Due to the Church hierarchy’s own actions, the current situation is becoming more and more unstable – the Church cannot maintain the status quo for long. At least two presidential candidates have declared their disagreement with Church policy on reproductive health, a position that would have been political poison a few years ago. More Catholics are speaking out, or voting with their feet. The Church is less and less seen as being infallible – increasingly its clay feet are showing.
In time, I hope an increasingly secular electorate will realize a few things about the Church and the civic sphere:
The Catholic hierarchy’s interests are not those of the community at large. Catholic interests cannot predominate in a multi-ethnic, multi-confessional community. A Muslim or Protestant mother must not be compelled to settle for government services tailored only to meet Catholic sensitivities, which is what happens when the Church is able to bully legislators into substituting the Catholic agenda for the government’s.
The Church can no longer impose its particular views onto a secular government. Bishops may have to settle for a conversation with equals, instead of expecting to have their own way every time. Catholic scholar David Hollenbach argues that Catholic involvement in the public sphere “must proceed according to a mode of dialogue and persuasion… faith and theology are seen as participants in a drama that involves numerous other actors. The church is not the producer or director of this drama.”
In real life, the usurpation of government decision-making by ecclesiastics has always ended up badly for everyone. The Church loses moral authority, government decision making powers are hobbled, and constituents end up being badly served by dogma-driven decisions.
I no longer consider myself a Catholic. I still remember my Catholic upbringing and influences with fondness, but so much of present Catholic doctrine treats truth and morality as if it can be decided by fiat (”Roma locuta est…”), and I simply cannot be a part of that.
@ ako si gundam at ch
Ang greatest killers ay atheist at ang world’s largest charitable group ay CatholicChurch. Totoo o di??
di yata sweeping yan, kundi swakto swakto!!
Isang tanonglang. Totoo o di?
Peace bro!
Ako Si Gundam, lay off the Penn and Teller and start watching Bob Ross for a change.
And Alice, if you put down your Catholic exceptionalism filter, you’ll realize that the Catholic Church’s longevity or fan base does not justify its present actions. Or maybe you think it does?
That there is “something there upholding her” is not a question I’m interested in discussing, as there is nothing we can agree upon. Let’s talk, instead, about whether the Catholic Church’s long history justifies its acting on behalf of injustice in the world.
Do you mean to say, for example, that Church involvement in politics is justified in the long run, because “there is something there upholding her”? Ditto with genocide, torture, and child abuse?
latuni, idol!!
In the face of the mounting evidence you still hold on to your fallacious generalizations. You have buried your head in the sand like an ostrich, miring in willfull ignorance. Either you lack the faculty for reason, or your thick skull’s already crushed your brain.
You really can’t accept the church’s fallability, can you? Why don’t you read a page from history, and see from yourself? Our politicians would seem like kotong cops compared to the clergy. Stop drinking the gatorade and smell the coffee.
And answer Mike’s queries. DIRECTLY. No circular logic bullshit, please.
Til then, dear ostrich!!!
PS:
Di mo man lang sinagot yung tanongko, tapos magtatanongka??
Totoo ba o di na ang Catholic Church ay world’s largest charitable org gaya ng sabi ng film http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vs6qZd_xP1w
at ang worst murderers of all time ay ang atheists?
Inaatake ba kita? Bakit grabe ang atake mo sakin?
Gusto mong ipakita iba ang Kristiano at ang atheist?
@ Latuni: Atake ba ang ginagawa ni Mike? He’s just raising a point – a valid one! He’s not even retorting yet, and you call THAT an attack at your person already? JEEZUS H. CHRIST! Your brain is that of neanderthals and sipletons, unable to hold a candle to a decent discussion.
PS: Your follow-ups don’t even make sense at all. That vid doesn’t help either.
PPS: To the moderator of this site, please show latuni the door out. Give him/her/IT a boot to the as while you’re on it.
@ Ako si Gundam
the attitude is unnecessary. this is a civil discussion. let’s keep it that way.
and latuni, that isn’t a yes or no question. If you are talking about Stalin and Pol pot, yes they were atheists but it wasn’t their atheism that drove them to kill so many people. It was an adherence to a political agenda and the fear of being overthrown that drove them to do so. The argument that it was atheism that drove them to violence is as strong as the argument that liking the color green or red drove them to violence.
On the other hand, there have been many people throughout history who have clearly stated that they are killing in the name of god. Good examples of this are modern day terrorists. go back in history and the crusades and inquisition come to mind. It does not make sense to say that you will kill someone in the name of the lack of belief. that’s just stupid
“There has been no good-faith effort by the Church hierarchy to explain their side…Catholic interests cannot predominate in a multi-ethnic, multi-confessional community. ”
Below is what I wrote in Patricia’s page which may be useful here.
Even her stand on the RH bill is misconstrued as merely faith-based and irrational, without any basis in reasoned discourse on facts.
Contrast this with the cogent arguments of two intellectuals whose arguments do not even mention one biblical or magisterial pronouncements but only legal, moral, demographic, economic, medical reasons.
Even Fr. Gaston only used data.
From the above, one can see that the arguments of the prolife laity and clergy use secular reason which is multi-ethnic and multi-confessional.
You also have these many articles at the CBCP wesite.
I have a lot of respect for the people who set up this site, for it involves a lot of courage to fight for what you believe is right and true.
But now that some of the foundational premises of this site have been proven untrue, you might want to reconsider your campaign and use your talent and courage to fight the ignorance against the church and its rationality, and to spread what is true and right.
It will be a heroic decision but a magnificent one, a decision worthy of Filipinos, of whom I am a fan.
Just a friendly thought.
Alice, GTFO of here. Who the fuck are you to dictate rationalhero “to spread what is true and right. ” That seethes of condesencion.
Again, GTFO.
Seriously Alice. It is you who have no basis of what is true and right here.
So I echo Mike. Cheers and don’t let the door hit your ass on the way out.
YDLzrI lccrzpohicdn, [url=http://unedzxioslau.com/]unedzxioslau[/url], [link=http://uhistaajoigf.com/]uhistaajoigf[/link], http://gmaquafnndde.com/
Bravo, Alice!
Clearly Alice has shown that the Church only has given secular reasons which defend the rights of parents, of employers, the rights of women to health, the rights of the unborn human embryo.
She has shown that the premise of this website (church violating civil rights) is false. Mike’s statements on the Church not explaining its side and the Church pushing its own interest in a multi-confessional community have been proven false. To continue slandering the Church is to take the side of the Diabolikos, the Slanderer, the one who lies about others to achieve evil ends.
God Bless,
Tom
Alice’s links are full of misrepresentations. It’s one thing to play around with statistical data, quite another to actually see families who cannot earn enough to feed their children properly. Less mouths to feed = a better life. What could be more simple than that?
Re links between Atheism and mass murder, you guys might want to check out http://conservapedia.com/Atheism_and_Mass_Murder
It talks about several possible causal relationships between the two.
Re mouths to feed, it might be good to look at people as minds and hands as well. Here is another study (by Dr. de Vera) that might help.
Hope this helps! God bless.
Tom
^ Conservapedia isn’t what one would consider an unbiased source. Anyone who thinks that Conservapedia is a good source is an idiot
)
As for minds and hands, sure, go tell that to the squatters who have 6 or more kids selling cigarettes in the streets. Sure did them well
)
@ako si gundam, kako, missingoints
Totoo ba ang sabi ng conservapedia on atheism at mass murder o di? Totoo o di??
Yan ang tanong!!!
Kung totoo, aminiiiiiin!!!
Kung aaminin, mas masaya kayo
you will have peace in your hearts,
di na galit sa buhay kagaya ng iba diyan
^ Hindi totoo yun. Gago lang ang naniniwala sa Conservapaedia.
) Iba ang komunismo sa ateismo, maaring nag-ooverlap pero ang pagpatay ni Stalin ng mga kaaway niya ay dahil sa kaaway niya ang mga ito, hindi dahil wala siyang diyos.
Si Hitler na Kristyano andaming pinatay. Ang simbahan din nung panahon ng Inquisition andaming pinatay. At yun talagang aminado silang dahil sa relihiyon nila yun.
In short, maraming dahilan para pumatay ng maraming tao, hindi kasama diyan ang “wala akong diyos” dahil kahit may diyos ang mga tao, pumapatay pa rin sila ng pagkarami-rami.
Hi. I stumbled upon this little slice of heathen heaven while I was at Filipino Freethinkers forums.
Greetings to my fellow freethinkers.
@Tom
Conservapedia you say? Thanks, I’ll be sure to give it a look.
On the brighter side of things, what’s your take on the link between Catholics and Nazism? As an example:
“My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
So given your poor attempt at trying to directly associate atheists with genocide, shall I use your same logic against you and assume that ALL Catholics are psychotic, murderous, Jew-hating fanatics that deserve to be rounded up and sent off to the Nuremberg trials?
Of course not – It wouldn’t be fair to judge your entire demographic based on the douchebaggery of one of your believers.
So what gives you the right to judge all atheists as such?
As some of the other posters here have already said, STFU, and/or GTFO.
I am agnostic and I am quite flummoxed to see that believers have the upper hand in the use of reasoning in these pages.
The non-believers use ad hominems very freely (the lowest and scum hugging argument of all), nonsequiturs, overgeneralizations ( for ex, from one single early Hitler text to all Christians tsk tsk). The entire website of course is an enormous ad hominem vs rh.
This website is very discouraging for non-believers seeking rational redemption. Contradictory, too: the rational heroes look irrational to me! Sorry, but that’s my brutal but sincere take.
@241bong3 – yes I agree that some of the commenters have shown poor restraint but don’t you think that you yourself are guilty of overgeneralization by calling “the entire website an enormous ad hominem vs rh”? barring trolls from both sides of the fence, most of original posts are in fact articulate and well written. Just like with religion, a few loudmouths tend to ruin it all for the rest.
@Kurt
My mistake! It should read: the entire website is an enormous ad hominem vs the Catholic Church to argue for rh.
For this, there is no overgeneralization. Majority of contributors take pot shots at the church to push the rh agenda. The website itself officially declared— OPLAN PEPE encourages Filipinos to confess the sins of their church, a fallible organization of men that does not feel any guilt for violating civil rights by meddling in government affairs.
well bong3 the Roman Catholic is the biggest organization in the country that scares the living daylight out of congressmen into NOT passing the RH bill so therefore they are the targets
look at the first commenter, he argues that atheists are the cause of war etc etc he fired the first shot
So whateverman has graciously confirmed my point— the Roman Catholic org is the target because it stops rh. That’s ad hominem, plain and simple.
The first shot, mind you, was fired by the website. latuni for all his/her/its hysterics is plainly asking whether his/her/its points are true. By plain analysis and facts, they seem to be. Is it true atheists were the greatest murderers(plural)? By my Guinness book, the top three are. It’s plain fact, nothing to be worry about. To even say that latuni’s accusation is that atheists are the cause of war is a straw man argument against latuni. He/she/it did not say that. Again, sorry to be blunt— poor argumentation. Conservapedia for all its bias seems to be reasonable enough on Atheism and Mass Murder.
@241bong3 – tsk, tsk… Padre Damaso is that you? there you go again, demonizing everyone you can’t force to bow under you. All these people want to do is to show what the church is doing wrong. Its not ad hominem if you point out the deeds, not the doer. For all you know, some people here might even return back to the church if it had cleaned up its act. But then again, that’s a big “IF”
“Padre Damaso is that you?” Hope you see it—another ad hominem.
hehe, yes it most certainly is
to better illustrate what a REAL ad hominem is suppose to look like as you seem to be having great difficulty grasping the concept.
Want another one? how about those members of the catholic church telling all the gays and lesbians out there that they’re going to hell just for being themselves. ad hominem enough for you?
for all its bias …seems to be reasonable enough
WOW! SEEMS! and for ALL ITS BIAS! so u do confirm that conservapedia is biased therefore everything there IS BIASED plain and simple
now thats ad hominem!
we need an edit button or something
sorry for what will be a 3ple post
We are not attacking the RCC per se but its deeds as Kurt is saying, it might look like one but this article is written by 1 man, he does not necessarily reflect everyone’s opinion, and put it this way, if Mike Aquino posted something as he did, it would be like he represents this site although he is not, if a RCC priest did a bad deed, he would represent the RCC although he is not
doesnt help our cause though and this post may cause much more confusion
very good debate on the catholic church
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNODiU_-CNo
as you seem to be having great difficulty grasping the concept—another ad hominem.
Now I know why you’re an atheist. Its sheer stubbornness in your own habit of fleeing reasoned argument tsk tsk. Kawawa naman kayo.
*rolls eyes*
church: you are all sinful! immoral! you will all burn in hell for eternity! your way of life is an abomination! your words are heresy! you are doing the devil’s work!
us: no you’re wrong.
church: aaah!!! ad hominem! personal attack! we’re the victim here! we were just minding our own business until you came along!
——
@241bong3: please get on with the program, the CC has lost its moral high ground ages ago, its no longer a card you can play
Better—maawa kayo sa sarili niyo.
arguing on the internet is like playing in the Special Olympics, even if you win, ur still a retard
no offence is meant on this saying ^^
Quite so. Sometimes it does feel like throwing punches in the wind.
But remember, if good men do nothing, then evil triumphs. That’s why I believe in what this site stands for. If everyone just keeps quiet, then the CC will still be free to trample on everyone’s secular rights. We have to make some noise people! Now is not the time to be complacent. If the blacks could do it, so can the atheists, the gays, the single parents, and everyone else the church is always trying to put down.
Discouraging nga…
CC’s bartolome de las casas and francisco vitoria liberated many blacks from slavery. Theydeveloped theory of human rights.
CC has most number of caregivers for aids victims, has most number of orphanages for children of single mothers, has preached Jesus’ teaching on loving your enemies, etc.
Discouraging ngang basahin ang posts ng mga atheists dito. Di pinagisipan ang sinasabi…
at ikaw rin d na rin pinagiisipan
ang mga abuso ng mga pari sa mga Filipino, ang CC rin ang isa sa mga gumawa ng slave trade ng mga blacks sa slavery, pag persecute ng mga tao sa walang dahilan kundi suspect lang
na satan worshipper o witchcraft
at syempre naman sila ang magiging pinakamarami kc marami rin sila e e kung mas marami ang mga muslim, mas maraming caregiver etc ang muslim kesa sa myembro ng CC
Interesting. I’m, uh, “enlightened”.